Not happy with my RRS CF tripod.

[bye]

Probably the rep didn’t get the updated training from the Olympus technical trainer? The person that told us so is the official trainer for North America.

 

[Mack]

In the E-M1X manual, pages 176 and 510 mentions this:

"S-IS Auto (auto) Image stabilization disabled. Select this option when using a tripod."

Page 376: "Image stabilization may be unable to compensate for excessive camera motion. Use a tripod in these cases."

Page 211: "[S-IS Off] is automatically selected for [Image Stabilizer] when [Tripod] is chosen for [Shooting Method], [S-IS AUTO] when [Handheld] is selected."


Problem is when the (my) tripod produces excessive vibration on its own, and then how to set it for that: Best being On or Off? When I tap a leg and it starts shaking and I press the shutter to turn on the IBIS it does smooth it out. Releasing the shutter button the IBIS shuts off about 1/2 second later and I can see the shakiness return. Seems in my case it is best to turn it On and leave it On. Battery life may suffer though, but it has backup.

The IBIS may be designed for slower wandering vibration made by man and not the high frequency vibes by the ringing of the lightweight CF tripod legs. I know Nikon has some vibration table to calibrate their VR lenses, but don't know what frequency they shake their lenses at, and it may be slower vibrations than the buzzy CF tubes.

 

[nwphil]

Heya Mack,
not an expert, but I have used other budget tripods prior to my RRS - do you think the vibration is bad? well, it's way bad in alluminium or plastic types.
Also, concrete is one of the least forgiving surfaces. I usually shoot on dirt, and I know from experience to always shoot with timer - at least 4-5 seconds delay (mirror up/lock does not apply in this forum ). Not moving, or having anyone moving nearby; double check the legs are tight as far as spread, locks and bolts; chech ballhead locks and camear/lens plate too; these are little things I do to minimize vibrations because there is nothing I can do about living in an earthquake prone volcanic area. I can only try to mitigate all variables so much (don't get me started on dust)

 

[Mack]

Heya Mack,
not an expert, but I have used other budget tripods prior to my RRS - do you think the vibration is bad? well, it's way bad in alluminium or plastic types.
Also, concrete is one of the least forgiving surfaces. I usually shoot on dirt, and I know from experience to always shoot with timer - at least 4-5 seconds delay (mirror up/lock does not apply in this forum ). Not moving, or having anyone moving nearby; double check the legs are tight as far as spread, locks and bolts; chech ballhead locks and camear/lens plate too; these are little things I do to minimize vibrations because there is nothing I can do about living in an earthquake prone volcanic area. I can only try to mitigate all variables so much (don't get me started on dust)

It might be bad enough to affect the HR mode, but don't know as I haven't gone there yet.

I have moved it to the lawn, but the legs still ring on thumping them, or even pressing the shutter button I can see the telephoto lenses dance. Like you, I have set the self-timer up to 5 seconds minimum from the 2 second default one in the E-M1.2.

I saw the astro guys use some Soroban dampeners on the feet of their astronomy telescopes. The wrist weights I used yesterday have some "Hydro-Gel" in the inner part to keep the metal weights from being felt and that might be helping to dampen the vibes and ringing in the RRS tubes. When I thump the tube with the weight on the top collar, it feels somewhat like one of those dead-blow hammers that has less shock felt than a normal hammer.

I wish Ries, who makes wooden tripods, had a rental test program to see if they shake less than the RRS. Problem is they may weigh twelve pounds, but then if the RRS takes added weights to get it to behave similar to wood it might be a wash.

 

[Wibbly23]

i'm curious about the importance of your thump test.... are you kicking your tripod during an exposure?

i'm fairly certain that ANYTHING will vibrate when "thumped", so if you are searching for something you can hit while the shutter is open, you may never actually end up with a solution.

 

[bye]

In the E-M1X manual, pages 176 and 510 mentions this:

"S-IS Auto (auto) Image stabilization disabled. Select this option when using a tripod."

Page 376: "Image stabilization may be unable to compensate for excessive camera motion. Use a tripod in these cases."

Page 211: "[S-IS Off] is automatically selected for [Image Stabilizer] when [Tripod] is chosen for [Shooting Method], [S-IS AUTO] when [Handheld] is selected."


Problem is when the (my) tripod produces excessive vibration on its own, and then how to set it for that: Best being On or Off? When I tap a leg and it starts shaking and I press the shutter to turn on the IBIS it does smooth it out. Releasing the shutter button the IBIS shuts off about 1/2 second later and I can see the shakiness return. Seems in my case it is best to turn it On and leave it On. Battery life may suffer though, but it has backup.

The IBIS may be designed for slower wandering vibration made by man and not the high frequency vibes by the ringing of the lightweight CF tripod legs. I know Nikon has some vibration table to calibrate their VR lenses, but don't know what frequency they shake their lenses at, and it may be slower vibrations than the buzzy CF tubes.

Mack, if your tripod produced excessive vibration on its own, then you really NEED to look into upgrading both your tripod and your ball head to a much heavier and beefier system to reduce vibration to a minimum and that consumerates with the type of output you are planning to produce. If you are planning to produce small prints; I mean up to 24x36 (this is small print still), then you can mitigate that vibration somewhat with IBIS as IBIS' main duty is to reduce vibration, but NOT COMPLETELY ELIMINATE vibration. Still, it's better than having no IBIS at all. However, if you are planning to print big starting from 40x60 to 60x90 however, then those small vibration that you can't clearly see with 24x36 print will be visible at 60x90 and that is the issue. IBIS is not a substitute or excuse for using a lighter tripod and get away with pristine tack sharp 60x90 prints people could get shooting with more expensive $4k beefy heavy tripods. But I just found out yesterday night while shooting long exposures with the meetup group that this idea that, you can use IBIS plus a cheap small light tripod with a Sony A7RII and get the exact identical same sharp quality as someone with a Sony A99II using a super heavy video tripod. Not sure where people are getting this idea from.

She was complaining the images were soft even with IBIS on and on the tripod compared to mine (E-P5 with a beefy Manfrotto tripod but only 16MP!), when she was looking at my images. What did I demonstrated to her? Simply a robust secure support system will allow anyone to create tack sharp long exposure shots with minimum vibration, but at a cost both weight and money.

IBIS reduces vibration, because the system continually moves to compensate for camera movement. If you're on a tripod, any form of long exposure will record this IBIS movement, because what you see in the viewfinder is not always indicative of the final image. You really need to enlarge to 100 or 200% in order to see those minute movement compared to using no IBIS but with a beefy tripod and ball head.

Even yesterday the guy who was using the A99ii wished he had his A99 still, because the requirements for the 24MP is much less than 40MP + that he had to carry such a heavy tripod and ball head. But this is the price he had to pay to satisfy his much higher image IQ requirements. He was not willing to compromise that tack sharp image IQ he gets with his A99ii than he could with his older A99.

 

[Mack]

i'm curious about the importance of your thump test.... are you kicking your tripod during an exposure?

i'm fairly certain that ANYTHING will vibrate when "thumped", so if you are searching for something you can hit while the shutter is open, you may never actually end up with a solution.

Just tapping index finger on mid-leg. Not kicking it. I can see it vibrate just pressing down on the shutter at times and releasing it too. Could be some harmonics that the tripod and whatever weight setup on it do not agree and goes off into some resonate frequency vibes.

I'm going to turn on the IBIS too even though the manual says to turn it off on a tripod.

I'll mention I have used the same tripod on a two heavier Nikons. When I focus calibrated my lenses using the FoCal software I saw a lot of issues where the tuning spots wandered and I thought the lenses were just stubborn to get a good focus lock. Now I'm more suspect of the CF tripod which may have influenced that testing procedure too.

I bought their three-section TVC-43 legged tripod knowing the four section would be worse for vibes, but I think the lightweight design of the CF tripod may be detrimental to resolution. Guess extra weight can't be a bad thing, but carrying it - ugh!

On the E-M1X, I have noticed in Low Speed Sequence that the first shot may be less sharp than the second taken immediately after it. Tripod still ringing on tripping it, and settling down maybe on second shot?

 

[Mike Wingate]

Get a heavier camera.

 

[Mack]

Get a heavier camera.

Ha!!!

I'm thinking a horse watering trough, mix in a couple of yards of concrete, then planting the RRS tripod into it might calm it down.

Gads! An $1,800 tripod and the "Buy the best, and cry only once" motto isn't always true.

 

[nwphil]

I have always expected to see vibrations on a tripod - just have to work hard to minimize them, and reduce or eliminate all the other variables as much as possible.
Yes, weight will indeed solve the problem, by creating a bunch of others.
The wooden tripods are known to dampen vibrations way better than CF, but once you get into long focals, and high resolution sensors, little issues become amplified - that's the price to pay...along with more expensive gear.
You have a bunch of expensive solutions ahead of you, as being mentioned prior to my post, but all depends of the results you seek.

 

[Mike Wingate]

Wireless remote for taking the shots. I always have IBIS and OIS off. Spikes generally engaged. Hang a bag off the centre. Never extend the centre column. Decent tripod and head.

 

[oldracer]

@Mack, what is the diameter of the largest tubes on that tripod? For reference, Gitzo's 3-series "Studex" tripods have a max diameter of 32mm/1 1/4" IIRC the stiffness of a tube increases as the 4th power of diameter. It seems unlikely but could your tripod legs just be too small?

I routinely use a 3-series with 1951 Air Force resolution test charts in my basement and vibration, even with the less-damped aluminum legs, has never been an issue. The design of the chart (1951 USAF resolution test chart - Wikipedia) would make any vibration very apparent.

So overall I am puzzled by this thread.

 

[Replytoken]

Have you talked with RRS about this? They pride themselves on quality and performance over price, and it might be interesting to see what they had to say.

Good luck,

--Ken

 

[DanS]

This is from my GH5 manual.

It is recommended to disable the Image Stabilizer when using a tripod.

I'm sure someone will get all bent out of shape because of my following comments, but any tripod no matter how expensive it is, is going to have vibration issue if it has no cross bracing.

here is the TVC-43, its 6 lbs yet says it can support 100 lbs.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

Now here is a video tripod, note that is has cross bracing at the bottom and in the middle. Also note it's a 9.7 lb tripod, yes is only rated for 39.7 lbs.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

Light weight and rigid are pretty much mutually exclusive when it comes to tripods.

 

[Lawrence Beck]

Ha!!!

I'm thinking a horse watering trough, mix in a couple of yards of concrete, then planting the RRS tripod into it might calm it down.

Gads! An $1,800 tripod and the "Buy the best, and cry only once" motto isn't always true.

You haven't mentioned how long your shutter speeds are or whether you've tried hand holding your EM1 Mk2, Mack. With 7 stops of IS between the camera and lens I'd think you wouldn't need a tripod unless you're using extremely long exposures.
There may be a problem with your IS if vibration is not dampened by the camera's IS.

 

[Mack]

I'm sure someone will get all bent out of shape because of my following comments, but any tripod no matter how expensive it is, is going to have vibration issue if it has no cross bracing.

Light weight and rigid are pretty much mutually exclusive when it comes to tripods.

I agree.

I think this high-rez stuff is going to need much better tripods overall. The video guys already went through this with their Jello shakes with video shots. Now it seems to be affecting us in the high-megapixel area too. Can't see pulling out some 40 year old gear-head drive Bogan built for 8x10 cameras but dunno. Maybe visit an astronomy store and see what they got - and kick some to see how they respond to vibes too.

Off to buy some more wrist weights. If they work, RRS may sell them for $300.

Btw, that Surui BCT-2203/3203 (??) tripod looks very nice! 6 year warranty and 10 layers of CF for their tubes too.
https://sirui-photo.com.au/product/sirui-bct-3203-professional-video-carbon-fibre-tripod/

I went to a dealer who had the Surui USA rep demo'ing stuff to the owner. He showed where they extended the yoke that attaches to the CF tubes further down than RRS does. Looks to be an inch or so more metal at the head that may do a bit more dampening. They do look like Chinese copies of the RRS gear, but don't know if one is better than the other.

 

[DanS]

Off to buy some more wrist weights. If they work, RRS may sell them for $300.

You might want to try something like this first, so you don't have to carry all the weight with you.

ObenTripod Hammock

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

 

[Holoholo55]

Some years ago, I was selling my friend's Celestron C8 telescope with a wooden tripod and equatorial mount. Someone came to buy it and I asked him if what kind of observing he was planning to do. He said he wanted to do astrophotography and was primarily interested in the tripod because wooden tripods inherently damp vibrations very well. Probably even better than carbon fiber. It may be worth a look.

Wooden Camera Tripods
Tripods from Berlebach - The Genuine Alternative! Wooden Tripods Made in Germany

 

[Lawrence Beck]

Some years ago, I was selling my friend's Celestron C8 telescope with a wooden tripod and equatorial mount. Someone came to buy it and I asked him if what kind of observing he was planning to do. He said he wanted to do astrophotography and was primarily interested in the tripod because wooden tripods inherently damp vibrations very well. Probably even better than carbon fiber. It may be worth a look.

Wooden Camera Tripods
Tripods from Berlebach - The Genuine Alternative! Wooden Tripods Made in Germany

What Walter said X10 ! Wood is superior to Carbon Fiber and Berlebach makes the best wooden tripods that are comercially available. They are obviously heavier then carbon fiber and longer when broken down as they only have two sections (for the most stable ones).
Some years back there was a very extensive test on metal, carbon fiber and wooden tripods and the Berlebach wooden tripods came out on top. I've lost my copy of that test to a dead external hard drive or I'd post it for your review.
In any case... I think that given the results I've seen with my 2015 vintage EM5 Mk 2 mounted to a 15 lb lens with stacked teleconverters you don't need anything heavier than what you already have. Something is off with your camera as you shouldn't be getting soft images with that lens on an EM1 Mk2.

 

[Matt Drown]

Regarding IBIS + Tripods, there was a thread earlier with samples:
Leave your IS on

My reading of the em1.2 manual, page 53 says turn off IBIS if using non m43 lenses on a tripod. Pen-F manual has similar statement. YMMV obviously.