Not happy with my RRS CF tripod.

[Mack]

For some reason, with the Olympus camera and either the 12-100mm or the 300mm lens on the RRS TVC-43 tripod and their BH-55 ball head, I get a lot of vibration. If I thump one leg with my finger, the thing vibrates for maybe 2-3 seconds before it settles down on concrete. I've set the self-timer to the longest time for a shot because of the vibes.

I tried a 15 pound sandbag hanging from its center hook, but the legs are still vibrating too much. Seems some resonance thing with the Olympus setup it doesn't like.

I rubber-banded a 16 ounce water bottle to each leg which seems to help a bit. Maybe some tripod leg spreader or tray like on an astronomer's telescope tripod that attaches to the three legs might help with the CF tubes shaking.

I know the video guys use much heavier tripods due to some Jello effect of the video if they have vibration. Don't know if the Olympus High-Rez mode may be affected by the CF leg's vibes or not and maybe ruin the pixel-shifting image. Not about to toss a $4K Sachtler tripod into the mix as I thought the RRS was already expensive enough.

Wooden tripod maybe?

Tia.

 

[bye]

For some reason, with the Olympus camera and either the 12-100mm or the 300mm lens on the RRS TVC-43 tripod and their BH-55 ball head, I get a lot of vibration. If I thump one leg with my finger, the thing vibrates for maybe 2-3 seconds before it settles down on concrete. I've set the self-timer to the longest time for a shot because of the vibes.

I tried a 15 pound sandbag hanging from its center hook, but the legs are still vibrating too much. Seems some resonance thing with the Olympus setup it doesn't like.

I rubber-banded a 16 ounce water bottle to each leg which seems to help a bit. Maybe some tripod leg spreader or tray like on an astronomer's telescope tripod that attaches to the three legs might help with the CF tubes shaking.

I know the video guys use much heavier tripods due to some Jello effect of the video if they have vibration. Don't know if the Olympus High-Rez mode may be affected by the CF leg's vibes or not and maybe ruin the pixel-shifting image. Not about to toss a $4K Sachtler tripod into the mix as I thought the RRS was already expensive enough.

Wooden tripod maybe?

Tia.

I don't think you can escape a more expensive tripod if you want the least vibration. I know of one person who had to get a super heavy and beefy tripod $4k so he could reduce the vibration enough to let his EOS 5DSR to realize all that sweet 50MP of resolution. Of course, it was so heavy that he would not bring it too often unless he needs to create gallery quality photos.

People do not realize what it takes to get the best high rez image. It doesn't end with just the body and lens; the support platform needs to be secure as well and that means having spikes and digging in to the ground, sand bags, water bottles, removing the camera strap (acts as a sail when there's wind) and the whole lot. I've had seen people do just ALL THAT just so that they can get the perfect hi-res shot with a traditional high res camera.

 

[Ranger Rick]

What about leaving the IBIS on in these situations? If there is vibration, why wouldn't the IBIS take care of it? Granted this is not what one would expect using a tripod, but isn't movement movement?

 

[bye]

What about leaving the IBIS on in these situations? If there is vibration, why wouldn't the IBIS take care of it? Granted this is not what one would expect using a tripod, but isn't movement movement?

Nope it won't. It actually will make it even worse! What happens is that the accelerometer in all Olympus cameras will go into a feedback loop when it detects no vibration of any kind; thus creating its own vibration and causing the image to degrade due to its own internal feedback. So the old recommendation that setting to IS Auto and leave it there is not a good advice. IS Auto is used for panning purpose; not detect when on the tripod it will shut it off.

Olympus recommends that when shooting on the tripod is to turn OFF the IBIS or Lens IS.

 

[Reflector]

Nope it won't. It actually will make it even worse! What happens is that the accelerometer in all Olympus cameras will go into a feedback loop when it detects no vibration of any kind; thus creating its own vibration and causing the image to degrade due to its own internal feedback. So the old recommendation that setting to IS Auto and leave it there is not a good advice. IS Auto is used for panning purpose; not detect when on the tripod it will shut it off.

Olympus recommends that when shooting on the tripod is to turn OFF the IBIS or Lens IS.

Not necessarily true. I've watched the IBIS turn off on my E-M1II while on a tripod (magnified view loses stabilization while I was adjusting the focus and bumping the camera). It does detect tripods but if you feel real paranoid about image stabilization turning on over tiny vibrations you can turn it off.

 

[Lawrence Beck]

Nope it won't. It actually will make it even worse! What happens is that the accelerometer in all Olympus cameras will go into a feedback loop when it detects no vibration of any kind; thus creating its own vibration and causing the image to degrade due to its own internal feedback. So the old recommendation that setting to IS Auto and leave it there is not a good advice. IS Auto is used for panning purpose; not detect when on the tripod it will shut it off.

Olympus recommends that when shooting on the tripod is to turn OFF the IBIS or Lens IS.

I have to disagree with you on shutting off the camera IS when using a tripod, David. My opinion is based on extensive experience with my EM5 Mk2 mounted to a Leica 400 APO 2.8 lens with stacked 1.4 and 2X Leica APO teleconverters mounted to the back of the lens. That's a full frame equivalence of 2240mm. I did many dozens of exposures on a carbon fiber tripod (Gitzo Series 5 with an Arca B1 ball head) and I couldn't get s single shot at five different f stops with the IS turned off. With the IS turned on I was getting very sharp images at f4.5 with my 400 and at f3.5 with my 280 APO 2.8 lens with stacked teleconverters attached.
Again, sorry to disagree. I've read what you posted so many times by others that I had to do my own tests to test the validity of this advice... and I proved it wrong with many dozens of images shot.
I've also shot many dozens of photos of the recent full moon and was unable to get a single sharp image without IS turned on. I've yet to experience a single image indicating that the camera's IS was going into some "loop" when the IS was turned on with a lens mounted to a tripod. With IS engaged I obtained the sharpest images I've ever taken of the moon... so I personally would never shoot with my long manual focus APO glass without IS turned on.
Have you personally tested this and based your advice on your personal experience, or is this based on what you understand from what you've read from Olympus or other sources? I'm curious how you arrived at your advice. That's my reason for asking.

 

[bye]

Actually the recommendation came from Olympus itself during the show and tell session. They did say that there is no harm in leaving IBIS on, but they did want to set the record straight that there was this universal understanding that it is fine leaving IBIS on on the tripod, but that recommendation never officially came from Olympus.. That does not mean that you can not get sharp images leaving it on either as as IBIS works advantageously on the tripod in some situations as you and myself had observed, but should not be construed as defacto blind knowledge is I think what they are trying to convey.. If i am willing to venture the reason is that, your results may well be indicative to your setup and yet may NOT be universally replicated 100% all the time with everyone owning similar gear setup. The implication is that, Olympus may find the E-M5 ii working fine for another individual who claimed that he or she could not get the identical results as you did with your similar results. And thats the issue I think Olympus is trying to get away from. Trying to solve warranty problems when it can not be solved and yet the claims from other individuals said it can be done when infact it could be a localized unique condition. This is what I think Olympus was trying to convey. You can get great results, but keep in mind that results like this may not be universally guaranteed to be applicable in all other E-M5 ii and lens combo.

i for one assumed this knowledge came officially from Olympus, but was kindly corrected by their technical staff as not being the case.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Nope it won't. It actually will make it even worse! What happens is that the accelerometer in all Olympus cameras will go into a feedback loop when it detects no vibration of any kind; thus creating its own vibration and causing the image to degrade due to its own internal feedback. So the old recommendation that setting to IS Auto and leave it there is not a good advice. IS Auto is used for panning purpose; not detect when on the tripod it will shut it off.



Olympus recommends that when shooting on the tripod is to turn OFF the IBIS or Lens IS.

I agree with you in general. You say "when it detects no vibration of any kind". While there seem to be at least two schools of thought on that in the posts above, the point was that the OP said there was vibration from the CF tripod legs. If there is vibration, there cannot be "no vibration of any kind". Perhaps a reason to buy that $5 tripod?

 

[Lawrence Beck]

Thanks, David.
I've learned from many years of participating on various camera forums that the best way to get to the truth is to do the test myself. It takes time... but given the results one can get from different tripods I had to find out what might be the case with the equipment I personally owned.
I have a good deal of respect from posts of yours that I've read since becoming a follower of this forum and I'm glad you didn't take my objection personal.
One case in point on things I've read repeatedly on different forums is that the Wimberly Sidekick on a good ball head is only useful for lenses up to 400mm. I can't tell you how many times I've read this, all the while using the Sidekick on my Arca B1 head with my earlier Leica 800 modular APO lens with the 2X APO converter attached.
The camera I was using at the time was the Leica DMR, Leica's hybrid R8/9 film camera with a digital back attached. Of course, the camera was Leica's first digital effort following the M8, and it had no IS, so I had to jump through every imagineable hoop to get a sharp image with that combination. It was extremely difficult... and as part of my testing I'd attach a laser pointer to the lens hood of the 800 and point it at a wall 60 feet away. I'd then touch the tripod leg and watch the movement of the laser point on the wall through binoculars. That, coupled with taking many photos with a variety of tripods and heads helped in finding the ultimate solution.
I tried all sorts of tripods and heads, including the full Wimberley and the top of the line $1,600 Manfrotto fluid Video Head. The Sidekick on the Arca B1 was easily the clear winner.
I called and spoke directly with John Wimberly and was told by John that the Sidekick attached to a high quality ball head, such as my B1, would provide superior results to the full Wimberley. That confirmed my personal experience, and proved incorrect the assertion by pros such as Art Morris who claimed the full Wimberley to be superior. It was only after an email exchange with Art that I called John Wimberley to confirm the results I was seeing with my own eyes.
I'm a relative newbie to Olympus cameras, having bought my EM5 Mk2 only a year ago for use in an underwater housing. I never thought I'd be using it for moon photos until I reflected on a comment by the fellow from whom I bought my 800mm Leica Modular lens. He said that he had bought the lens and had used it for lunar photography but now needed something with more magnification. So just out of curiosity I mounted the EM5 Mk2 on my 400 and ran some tests with the Olympus.
One of many things I learned is that it's difficult getting sharp images due to my living at sea level on the Sea of Cortez. The dust that's constantly blown off the Sonora desert coupled with salt air makes for some potent filtration. What I had previously attributed to a less than sharp lens was disproven on the last full moon (following the last blood moon) when I managed some pretty decent images with the 400 + 2X + the 1.4 APO TC's. I realized just how important it is to have clear atmosphere (or to take moon shots at elevation) when working with extreme telephoto lenses. That's why observatories are located on the tops of mountains.
The following image is downsized to 1600 pixels on the long dimension, taken with the EM5 Mk2 and the 400 + 2X +1.4.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

 

[bye]

I agree with you in general. You say "when it detects no vibration of any kind". While there seem to be at least two schools of thought on that in the posts above, the point was that the OP said there was vibration from the CF tripod legs. If there is vibration, there cannot be "no vibration of any kind". Perhaps a reason to buy that $5 tripod?

Vibration from the IBIS when no external forces are detected; this causes the accelerometer to react to the IBIS motion and compensate, because IBIS itself is never at a static stand still. The tripod vibration can sometimes be compensated by IBIS, but it is NOT unversally replicable. Meaning that one body lens setup may work fine, but another identical body lens setup may not provide identical performance. There is no harm in trying anyhow. The same analogy would be like the running shoes that Usain bolt wore or the swim suit Michael phelps wore to win their Olympic medals. Those shoes and swim wear may help these individuals win their medals, but it is not universally true that just because I wear the same shoes as Usain bolt or the same swim wear as Michael Phelps that I could run as fast or swim as fast as they did. But sometimes some individuals get ahead of themselves and sell these ideas to others and then those people complain to Adidas or Speedo why they are not running faster like Usain or swim faster like Michael. Same with IBIS and the tripod. Individual results are individual. They are not universal.

 

[Wibbly23]

that is the weirdest most nebulous comparison i've ever read....


if the tripod is vibrating, the IBIS has an error to correct. IBIS is a control loop. if there is an error, it can be corrected. if there is no error, there is nothing to correct, and the sensor will wander into error, then correct, then wander, then correct. simple as that. fortunately for us, the error required for the control loop to work is very small (look how well it works).

the only acid test for this would be to lock the camera up solid on something that is 100% immovable, then set the intervalometer with silent shutter and 12 second timer, then take 10 shots with ibis on, and 10 with ibis off. has anyone done this? because field tests aren't going to provide controlled enough circumstances to make an absolutely claim.


if you are sure your tripod is ABSOLUTELY perfect then sure, disable IBIS and lock up the sensor. if you are sure it isn't, then IBIS has error to work with and will be able to correct it.

what control loops have to do with swim shorts i'll never know.

 

[bye]

that is the weirdest most nebulous comparison i've ever read....


if the tripod is vibrating, the IBIS has an error to correct. IBIS is a control loop. if there is an error, it can be corrected. if there is no error, there is nothing to correct, and the sensor will wander into error, then correct, then wander, then correct. simple as that.


if you are sure your tripod is ABSOLUTELY perfect then sure, disable IBIS and lock up the sensor. if you are sure it isn't, then IBIS has error to work with and will be able to correct it.

what control loops have to do with swim shorts i'll never know.

Because if you rely solely on one set of gear setup; what happens if you are a pro and you damaged your body or lens and the new lens or body set could no longer provide identical performance; but now you are up in the mountains and you could not get identical results?

Why not ensure a system of support that you can get identical results irregardless of equipment tolerances. The short analogy is exactly that. It is skill, not equipment technology that provides consistent results.

 

[Mack]

I found some old wrist weights and I noticed they can close down to a small diameter via the Velcro strap. They weigh about 2.5 pound each.

I put two of them on the upper legs of the RRS tripod and they seem to minimize the vibration quite a bit. They hold well over the upper twist-lock grip of the tripod. I need to get another one for the third leg, maybe one of the following in a 5 pound size.

Valeo Pair of Adjustable Ankle/Wrist Weights | Big 5 Sporting Goods

Photo shows the 2.5 pound (each) TKO Fitness weights I used. Rubber bands were from water bottle test which failed the vibes test.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

 

[Ranger Rick]

I found some old wrist weights and I noticed they can close down to a small diameter via the Velcro strap. They weigh about 2.5 pound each.

I put two of them on the upper legs of the RRS tripod and they seem to minimize the vibration quite a bit. They hold well over the upper twist-lock grip of the tripod. I need to get another one for the third leg, maybe one of the following in a 5 pound size.

Valeo Pair of Adjustable Ankle/Wrist Weights | Big 5 Sporting Goods

Photo shows the 2.5 pound (each) TKO Fitness weights I used. Rubber bands were from water bottle test which failed the vibes test.

View attachment 724019

To have to do that with a, what, $1k tripod is ridiculous. God bless you if you are willing to carry 10# of weights along with the tripod and ballhead. I admire your ingenuity in being willing to adapt those weights- you are a better man than I

 

[oldracer]

... if there is no error, there is nothing to correct, and the sensor will wander into error, then correct, then wander, then correct. simple as that. ...

Sorry, it would be a pretty poor controls engineer who produced an unstable loop in this day and age. And a pretty poor product test group that passed it.

I researched this stabilization on/off question a couple of years ago, starting with my own tests (Panasonic GX7 IIRC) that showed no effect. I then found that there were a couple of very early Canon lenses that did have the problem, resulting in Canon warning users to turn off the stabilization when using those specific lenses. Maybe @Wibbly23's unstable loop? From that point I think the story became an OWT. Panasonic repeats it in the GX8 manual, I know.

As one of the posters suggested, doing one's own tests is the answer. An ounce of data trumps a pound of speculation.

 

[Wibbly23]

Sorry, it would be a pretty poor controls engineer who produced an unstable loop in this day and age. And a pretty poor product test group that passed it.

I researched this stabilization on/off question a couple of years ago, starting with my own tests (Panasonic GX7 IIRC) that showed no effect. I then found that there were a couple of very early Canon lenses that did have the problem, resulting in Canon warning users to turn off the stabilization when using those specific lenses. Maybe @Wibbly23's unstable loop? From that point I think the story became an OWT. Panasonic repeats it in the GX8 manual, I know.

As one of the posters suggested, doing one's own tests is the answer. An ounce of data trumps a pound of speculation.

wasn't suggesting unstable, it's not like the thing hunts around all over the place, it's very obvious that the system works within the resolution of the sensor or very nearly. so if there is any error at all when IBIS is enabled and the camera is 100% stationary then the only reasonable answer would be hunting.

i don't believe this to be the case, however.

 

[Quadna71]

All discussion aside, @Lawrence Beck that shot of the moon is phenomenal! I can't imagine what the full resolution version looks like!!!

 

[Danny.]

What's the old saying with tripods ....... if you can lift it, it's no good.

I use a Manfrotto triman 028B and a gimbal head for the 800 F/5.6, not that expensive and it is heavy, very stable though. The centre column is solid steel and self locking. Carbon fibre is not a me thing. I like heavy and rigid.

Like cameras and formats, there is always a compromise.

Danny.

 

[Mack]

To have to do that with a, what, $1k tripod is ridiculous. God bless you if you are willing to carry 10# of weights along with the tripod and ballhead. I admire your ingenuity in being willing to adapt those weights- you are a better man than I

Yeah, it is sort of crazy one needs to do that to an $1,800 tripod. I suspect they may use thin carbon fiber tubes so they have some ringing or vibration going on when extended. Lightweight design compromised stability for a weight savings.

I went to their manufacturing and sales shop several years ago in San Luis Obispo, CA (They moved out of CA last summer to Utah.). I was planning to buy a Gitzo as they were selling those too. They pointed out all the flaws in the Gitzo as well as parts issues so I bought their brand. Didn't think a tripod would cost that much, but they generally work well with their L-plates on whatever camera.

Here's their old shop photo and why they moved: Another manufacturing company leaves SLO: 'Our employees can’t afford to buy a home'

I never had a Nikon lens with the equivalent focal length of the Olympus 300mm plus the TC (420mm) to see any sort of vibration off the RRS tripod until now. I'd expect a Nikon 840mm to probably act the same way with vibration, if not worse.

I pick up some extra wrist weights tomorrow and see how it goes.

 

[retiredfromlife]

Nope it won't. It actually will make it even worse! What happens is that the accelerometer in all Olympus cameras will go into a feedback loop when it detects no vibration of any kind; thus creating its own vibration and causing the image to degrade due to its own internal feedback. So the old recommendation that setting to IS Auto and leave it there is not a good advice. IS Auto is used for panning purpose; not detect when on the tripod it will shut it off.

Olympus recommends that when shooting on the tripod is to turn OFF the IBIS or Lens IS.

When I went to a "Coffee with Olympus" and my recent touch and try with the EM1X the Oly rep indicated leave IBIS on all the time for stills.